Tuesday, August 02, 2005

One problem solved


Richard Seymour ended his holdout. I'm not a fan of holdouts, but at least he was quiet about it without ripping his team and teammates (unlike you know who). Plus, the holdout worked; he got some more money.

22 comments:

Patriotsy2k said...

Alan, why aren't the Pats fans ripping Seymour? Players like Brady and Dillon took less $ and restructured their contracts. Why couldn't Seymour? What makes him so special? I thought the Patriots were all about the TEAM?

Alan said...

1. His history. Before his holdout, fans loved him because of his production and he seemed like a good guy.
2. The way he held out. He didn't say one bad word about the Pats. He just stayed quiet which fans appreciate. Nothing sounds worse than an athlete complaining about money.
3. Many agreed with his holdout. He was extremely underpaid. This isn't like Terrell Owens who made 8 million last year and is begging for more.
4. It's the Patriots. Fans have a good reason to feel positive about this team.

Patriotsy2k said...

Alan, you are wrong. While he may have "seemed like a good guy", nobody put a gun to his head to sign that 6 year deal in 2001. It doesn't matter if it is the Patriots, or the Cardinals...these overpaid athletes should honor their contracts and be happy they are blessed to play this game at a high level.
You even mentioned in a previous post that this could be a problem for the team, therefore one has to wonder how this might have affected the Pats, especially if it continued into the regular season. I may be glad that he's back, yet let me ask you a question. Do you have the nerve to ask your employer for more money, and then not show up and demand this if they say no. I doubt it. Why should Seymour be allowed to, especially on a team where nobody has done this???

The Godfather said...

I'm very impressed (and surprised) with patsy2k's view on this matter.
The Pats pride themselves on having "team" players and unselfish players. Suppoisedly, not one player is essential to their success and it is the team as a whole that has broght this success.
Put TO aside because what Seymour is doing has nothing to do with TO. He was looking out for himself and not the better of the team. Just because he didn't rip the team doesn't excuse him holding out.

Alan said...

I'm willing to admit that the Patriots aren't in fantasy land. They have unselfish players, but most of them still care about money a lot. Players on the Patriots do look out for themselves.

Patriotsy2k, you can't compare a professional team to "regular people" working at regular jobs. The nature of contracts and the profession is a little bit different than mine.

There are people who refuse to work so they can get paid more(organized unions/strikers).

I still don't like that Seymour held out, but I'm not going to completely change my opinion of him because of it.

And what am I exactly "wrong" about Patriotsy2k? You wanted to know why fans aren't that upset about the holdout and I gave you some good ones. You don't have to agree with each reason, but I don't think I'm wrong when I say those four reasons are why fans aren't that upset.

The Godfather said...

you can make your four, or ten, points about why fans are not upset. the Pats fans that support, or at least do not discourage, Seymour's holdout are hypocritical. it is the theory that players like TO (or Pedro) are primadonnas (sp?) and are bad for the game, but if a player holds out for the pats, get his money and comes to camp, there is nothing wrong with that?
I'll even make my point about Dillon. He was a nuissance in Cincy. Sure, he is quiet when the Pats go 14-2 and win the Super Bowl. Does that make it ok? There were posts on this website criticizing Sheffiled earlier in the year about his attitude. When I asked for an example, I was going his years in Milwaukee (10 years ago?). So if a plyer is not on the Pats or another Boston team, they are held to a different standard than the hometown players.

Alan said...

If any Boston player like Sheffield admitted that he committed errors on purpose so he could get traded, I wouldn't like him.

I said I didn't like Seymour's holdout, but I'm not going to criticize him as much as T.O. T.O. started complaining about his contract less than a year after he signed it and he trashed his teammates.

As for Dillon, I think most fans, no matter what city they're in, give a player with baggage a fresh chance when they go to a new team. Philly fans did it with T.O. originally, Yankee fans did it with Dwight Gooden.

The Godfather said...

"If any Boston player like Sheffield admitted that he committed errors on purpose so he could get traded, I wouldn't like him"

"As for Dillon, I think most fans, no matter what city they're in, give a player with baggage a fresh chance when they go to a new team"

do you see the contradiction within one post?

Alan said...

No.

Dillon was a discontent in Cinci, but I don't remember him fumbling on purpose

The Godfather said...

As long as Dillon is wearing a Boston (or New England as ther case is here) uniform, he can do no wrong in the eyes of the fans. What was your opinion of him in Cincy before he came to the Pats?
It is fine to be biased towards the players of the teams you like. It is a pretty normal attitude for Boston fans.

Alan said...

It's a pretty normal attitude of ALL fans to be biased towards the players on the fans they like. Just to pin it on Boston fans is stupid.

Meanwhile, Patsy2k, who I think likes the Patriots, is criticizing Seymour, and I've been criticicizing David Wells, Antoine Walker, and Paul Pierce. So I guess Boston fans are capable of being critical of Boston athletes.

I didn't like Dillon before he came to the Pats because of his reputation of being a malcontent,but as I said before, fans tend to give a players a fresh chance when they join their new team. So far I like what I've seen.

Patriotsy2k said...

Let me tell you something Alan. When Bryan Cox came to the Patriots, everybody started to love him, just like when Rickey Henderson became a Red Sox in 2002 . These were players who had done a lot of damage to the local teams in Boston. What's next- the Celtics faithful cheering Bill Laimbeer if he became a Celtic in his later years? It's a weak view to be biased towards a player just because he is now a local, whether Alan is correct or not. The Godfather made a good point here with the Dillon example, cause even myself forgot what he was like before last season. I think he maybe slipped the radar due to him being in small market Cinncy, and his team hardly ever playing the Pats.
I want to go back to Seymour now. Tonite I read an article on Pats pro Football Weekly about Deion Branch and how he is on the cover of this season's NFL record book. David Goldberg praised Deion, writing "In other words, he's a typical New England Patriot, more interested in winning than in furthering his own agenda". As me and the Godfather already stated, the Patriot players are team-oriented and usually try to restructure their contract to save valuable cap space so they can sign other teammates. Teams like the Eagles and Steelers right now are having holdout problems with selfish players, those that are more in character with Seymour now.
Think about this, Alan, before you continue to defend Richard Seymour.

The Godfather said...

I can see giving Dillon a second chance. I don't have much trouble with that. But then why are you criticizng gary Sheffield for things he did when he was young and immature? Keep in mind that I questioned patsy2k months ago when this happened.

As for most fans being baised. I can speak for myself. There was talk of the Mets trying to upgrade at 2B this year and the name of Jeff kent came up. He was a clubhouse problem when he was in NY and I personally wouldn't want to see him wear a Mets uniform. Other players who left the Mets, I have rooted for and still do such as Alfonzo, Wigginton (who was demoted to the minors), Leiter (even though he took his parting shots at the mets organization), Rick Reed (when he left), even Mike Hampton who now plays for the rivals and left the Mets for a lucrative deal in the Rockies.
Boston fans criticized Boggs all the time after he left. Now they are beginning to appreciate him again. Remember, Boggs had the one year where he batted .259 (didn't look this up so if it is slightly inaccurate, I apologize. I am going on memory here). The Sox had no interest in him and thought Scott Cooper was their solution.

Please do not include me in your statement about all fans being biased.

Alan said...

If you're unbiased that means you judge each player the same no matter what uniform they wear. You just admitted you root for former players because they're former Mets. That makes you biased. You don't want Kent on the Mets but if he ended up on the Mets you'd root for him, just like I'd root for Clemens if he somehow ended up back on the Red Sox.

Does Sheffield being a Yankee affect how I judge what he did in the past? Yes. What team a player plays for will affect my judgement of him. None of us are objective reporters.

And Patriotsy2k, if Lambier joined the Celtics, you'd be cheering with me if he gave Magic Johnson a hard foul.

Boston fans hated Chris Nilan (an NHL version of Bill Lambier) when he was a goon for the Bruins' rivals, the Canadians. When he joined the Bruins, Boston fans cheered for him.

I think I've said this many times; I don't like that Seymour held out, but I'm not going to obsess over it. Patriotsy2k, have you forgiven Ted Johnson yet for selfishly walking out of camp a few years ago?

Patriotsy2k said...

Alan, I think what the Godfather is trying to say is that he is biased towards certain players, and the uniform they are wearing is not relevant. Just because someone leaves your team doesn't mean you have to hate him, and just cause someone joins your favorite team you don't have to love him. And no....hell no....would I ever root for Bill Laimbeer. Maybe you forgot about all those squirmishes with the Pistons, mostly involving him. Your point is that players with baggage deserve a fresh start with a new team, mine is that sometimes these players shouldn't always be embraced with open arms. Dillon was, and I am glad for it. Cox was also, yet I think it was mostly due to his off-field presence. I never think of Cox as a Patriot, and just like Rickey, he seemed out of place here. Forgot also about Nilan, he was a goon and the B's should never have taken their nemesis's enforcer.

The Godfather said...

I don't root for Jeff Kent because he is a jer. I hated Jay Payton on the Sox because he is a jerk. What he pulled in Boston does not surprise me.
Example. I am a Mets' fan and I really still do not root for Tom Glavine. I want him to win because I want the Mets to win, but I will never be a Tom Glavine fan. He did nothing wrong, but when I see him, I still picture him in a Braves uniform.
I had a conversation today about Clemens. When I was told today that he was a good guy and good for the game, I disagreed. he threw at Piazza's head and also threw a sharp portion of a bat at him. I respect his talent and what he is doing, but I still dislike him.
I don't root for the Wigginton's and Alfonzos because of the uniform they wore. I root for them because they are good clubhouse people and add valuable talent to a team (not so much talent for Wigginton, but...). Same reason I root for Bill Mueller. he is just a good guy to have on your team.
I don't blind myself with the uniform a player wears and I think I am very consistent on how I view players.
I'd find it bery hard to believe that any Celtics fan would have rooted for Lambeer.

Alan said...

I've found myself more loyal to teams, than the players themselves. I do root for former Boston players and players who have never played for Boston. However, I'll admit that as long as a player is producing for my team, I'll tolerate some of his flaws.

It is difficult to imagine rooting for Bill Lambier, and I do hate him. However, can you think of a player new to a Boston team that wasn't cheered for at first? Plenty of players became unpopular as they stayed in Boston (Wil Cordero, Carl Everett),but I can't think of many that were hated right away because of what they did for past teams.

The Godfather said...

Fans will always have a change of heart based on production. I can remember fans giving mendoza a pretty hard time when he didn't produce. Wells was given a hard time until he started producing. I can't really think of many players that have come from rival teams in recent history.

Another good example of this conversation has to do with Ray Bouque. he is definitely on the more beloved Boston players in the city's long sports history. When he won the Cup (with Colorado), it was treated as a Boston championship. I don't think this reaction would be the same today since Boston has won several championships over the past 4 or 5 years. I remember having this disagreement about Bourque with patsy2k when it happened. I belive he now agrees with my point of view that I thought Boston fans blew this out of proportion since Bourque did not win a championship with Boston. I definitely see fans rooting for him as he definitely deserved to hoist the Cup, but the reaction in Boston was almost as big as it would have been had the Bruins won. I remember wearing a Devils jersey the night of Game 7 and the reaction at the famed Pizzaria Uno was how can someone in Boston be wearing a Devils jersey?
I know this example is somewhat unrelated, but it is just another example of an "obsession" with players after they leave Boston teams.

Patriotsy2k said...

I can't believe your still talking about the Bourque thing 4 years ago.
You probably are the only one who still thinks the fans "treated as a Boston championship". And what does this have to do with anything? We are talking about players joining your team and how you perceive them now. Did you just feel the need to mention this Colorado championship for the hell of it? We were all happy for Ray Bourque, after 20 years as a defenseman for the B's. I don't think there were many people flipping over cars and marching downtown that night.
Get over it.

The Godfather said...

First, I clearly stated the connection I was making.
Second, they had a rally at City Hall plaza for a player who won a championship in another city.
Third, talking about something 4 years ago? The conversation started about Boggs winning a championship in NY. So it is only ok to talk about things you want to talk about?
Very typical of patsy2k. When he is clearly wrong, he gets very defensive.

Patriotsy2k said...

You are wrong, Godfather.
We were talking about how we look at certain players, and how we might judge them differently because of the uniform they are wearing - mostly the home uniform. You first threw in a Clemens comment for some reason, and now you are bringing up Bourque. Bourque is one of the most beloved athletes in Boston history, who was traded to a contender so he could have a chance at a Cup. We were talking about players coming to a team, not players leaving a team. And for the record, you are the only one who mentioned Boggs, so "the conversation started about Boggs winning a championship in NY" is not accurate.
Maybe Boston should not have had a rally for Bourque. Maybe that was blown a little out of proportion. Yet this reaction was for Bourque, not the Avalanche. You somehow do not understand this. If you still feel offended that someone didn't like your Devils jersey that night, then you need to get over that also.

The Godfather said...

Get over it? If I am a Devils fan and I am wearing a Devils shirt in Boston when they are playing Colorado, no one should even think twice or make any comment.
It goes a little further than that. The Sox had a big game that day too (I believe Pedro was pitching) and there was an insert in the Globe of a K on one side and then "Win it for Ray" (or something to that effect).
Patsy2k, you were in disagreement with me on this issue way back then. The you agreed with me after you saw an article in the Providence Journal a few years later that supported my point, and now you are back to disagreeing with me. I won't bring it up again for another 3 years (in which time you will be in agreement with me again).
My last point is that I expanded the conversation. I apologize a thousand times to you that I talked about something you didn't want to talk about.
If you want to hear only pro Boston or only from Boston fans, I will keep my opinions to myself.